Recorded Conversations

00:00:03: Hi folks, this is all

00:00:05: things

00:00:06: product with Petra Ville

00:00:07: and Theresa course.

00:00:09: And we're so happy

00:00:10: you here Petra.

00:00:17: I want to explore this topic of.

00:00:20: We now live in an era where almost every conversation Is recorded?

00:00:24: What impact that has on Relationships people just what does it change for the better or worse?

00:00:34: It's such a tough question And just for clarification, conversations recorded in our tech bubble I'd say.

00:00:43: But yeah...

00:00:44: Yeah this idea that like AI is transcribing everything People

00:00:47: have

00:00:48: a note taker and every meeting they attend Some people wear devices and record every conversation with their family.

00:00:55: Hello

00:00:56: Metaglassers!

00:00:57: How much do you

00:00:57: hate?

00:00:57: Which i find little creepy

00:00:59: Super creepy.

00:01:00: we hate them.

00:01:02: I hope there will ban them over here at some point.

00:01:06: Yeah, I just recently had a personal experience for the first time where it was like,

00:01:12: ooh.

00:01:13: This is an interesting experience!

00:01:17: How will that change team dynamics and meeting dynamics in collaboration and communication?

00:01:24: Because iIwasjust on a call with a colleague And we were discussing something That my brain immediately said Like how we talked about a few weeks ago, and I think that was my take back then.

00:01:38: And he said like oh let me look it up!

00:01:40: i have the meeting

00:01:41: transcribed.".

00:01:42: No you actually had a slightly different opinion back than?

00:01:46: That felt so weird because I aka My Brain were very sure of what is going on with him.

00:01:58: that in the transcript it says something slightly different, so he was not massively different.

00:02:02: It was still along the same lines —the arguments still hold— but there were nuances to it and it really made me wonder of okay what will that change in our human collaboration?

00:02:16: In future?

00:02:16: A if we... Not only for politicians can fact-check everything everybody said all the time.

00:02:24: So What Will That Change?

00:02:27: And isn't it something that is truly human and actually really beautiful, that our brains make this smaller adaptations of an argument?

00:02:37: Because maybe we have learned something new in the meantime or read another article.

00:02:42: That has slightly changed our opinion... So should be held accountable for things said in the past?

00:02:53: Yeah I find it super tricky to think about these And I think that's cool, we're bringing it up and exploring a bit because its such brand new experience at least for me.

00:03:04: What do you thing Teresa?

00:03:07: Yeah!

00:03:07: You know what...I've been using this in way i think is helping to see some of my own blind spots and like seeing them remember things wrong so often have the feeling told somebody something and frustrated they are not doing

00:03:26: Mm-hmm,

00:03:27: right?

00:03:27: So like I'll be like.

00:03:28: I swear we've talked about this before.

00:03:30: why are we revisiting it?

00:03:32: and Because i use granola now for all my one on ones.

00:03:37: When I have that feeling I force myself to go back And look at the transcripts and more often than not We didn't talk About It Before

00:03:45: mm-hmm and That's

00:03:46: a little bit scary To me.

00:03:47: I'm Like Holy Crap.

00:03:48: I'm getting frustrated with People and it's Not...it's Me!

00:03:51: Like I'm The Problem.

00:03:57: This has been really enlightening.

00:03:59: It's like, really helping me see that my perception of reality is not the same as reality and we know this.

00:04:06: humans have known this forever right?

00:04:08: But now I viscerally experience it every day And its' been really positive because now i notice in other areas...I'm going to tell you a silly story.

00:04:18: My husband was wearing a TAB Benoit t-shirt he bought at concert recently.

00:04:25: Do you have two Tab Benoit T-shirts?

00:04:27: And he's like, no I only have one.

00:04:28: and i was like...I've

00:04:29: a visual in my head of your tab benoit t shirt.. ..and it is not the one that are wearing right now.

00:04:36: But we talked about....

00:04:36: Your memory just wasn't accurate.

00:04:38: Yeah!

00:04:39: We talked about other t shirts he has and was confusing with others shirts.

00:04:43: No My brain made up whole new t shirt That does NOT exist In The World And I was adamant Like I was so convinced.

00:04:51: My Memory Was Right.

00:04:53: On

00:04:53: the other hand It was beautiful Conversation maybe with the husband.

00:04:58: Yeah, I mean at first it was not but eventually... I actually think its kinda cool to use this way

00:05:12: But you used on yourself.

00:05:14: Now in my case somebody else has used

00:05:18: me

00:05:20: which is a different story.

00:05:21: It's a different store because I didn't ask for it and it felt slightly, well...it was not a big issue we're still friends but definitely for a split second it was like okay this feels weird?

00:05:34: Is that something that i can lean into?

00:05:36: or so how does it make me actually feel?

00:05:39: So that's one thing!

00:05:40: And then both you and I have just experienced and we talked about on the podcast that AI is quoting us wrong even with AI having access to all of writing.

00:05:53: And I'm just wondering, A how good the transcripts are because that is the first translation and then it has to pull out from its memory and interpret again?

00:06:04: That's a second line interpretation.

00:06:07: will everybody fact check these statements?

00:06:12: I doubt it, but then we have a conversation based on... But Petra you claimed four weeks ago in the meeting this following thing and i would need to make an effort.

00:06:23: go back what do really read the transcript.

00:06:26: And still wouldn't know if the transcript is accurate enough!

00:06:29: Actually I think that's very problematic with recorded conversations which should be hold people accountable for their past opinions.

00:06:41: Yeah,

00:06:41: and are we giving per people permission for their opinions to evolve?

00:06:45: like who cares that?

00:06:47: That's what you said three weeks ago today.

00:06:48: Exactly

00:06:49: What I'm saying.

00:06:50: yes because today this is the new Petra.

00:06:52: it has evolved its model.

00:06:54: i don't know.

00:06:55: four point six at least.

00:06:58: So yeah but So that is the philosophical question.

00:07:05: and then how much do we trust the LLMs with transcribing our conversations, with retrieving information from their transcripts?

00:07:13: That's another thing.

00:07:14: Okay

00:07:14: so I will say i really love it as a tool when I look at it myself.

00:07:22: yeah like I believe I said something and I can go back and test that.

00:07:25: I think that's a great use case.

00:07:31: Stop being on with other people is always the good

00:07:34: thing!

00:07:34: Yeah, if i was in your situation and somebody had said you say something different some people do this with my writing they'll be like hey he wrote this ten years ago and he wrote these three years to go and their inconsistent.

00:07:45: yeah

00:07:45: okay.

00:07:46: well seven

00:07:46: years passed between those two articles...like..I hope you keep learning as well.

00:07:52: um

00:07:53: so....i have done it many times already.

00:07:55: Yeah, so

00:07:58: I do think this is gonna push the boundaries on like...I don't think it's a fair assumption to assume somebody's view of something isn't going to evolve.

00:08:06: Mm-hmm yeah we need to grant each other the right of evolved opinions?

00:08:13: I mean i would hope we do that!

00:08:14: Right?!

00:08:15: Like all our opinion should be evolving at all times.

00:08:19: and then you are raising another point which My guess is that person was looking at like granola notes and maybe not even the transcript.

00:08:27: And, like... Maybe we shouldn't always assume that the notes are correct?

00:08:31: Yes!

00:08:32: Exactly.

00:08:32: But

00:08:33: I think there's a bigger question Like why does it matter what you might have said three weeks ago?

00:08:42: Doesn't it matter more what you think now?

00:08:47: Yeah That's a good question.

00:08:48: So that's actually how we dealt with it.

00:08:50: We dove into my reasoning so It basically heated up bit of Okay, but why did your opinion change two millimeters?

00:09:02: Because that's what we're talking about.

00:09:03: It was really like a very tiny bit of opinion changed here and there was actually an interesting experiment because then I was like, huh!

00:09:14: Why do they change my opinions?

00:09:18: And it was a helpful framing.

00:09:19: So even if I didn't like the sensation in the first place for this split second, It then wasn't interesting and fruitful conversation about that?

00:09:28: Maybe maybe That's the thing.

00:09:30: as long as we don't see it Like hey but you said that four weeks ago You cannot change your opinion.

00:09:37: This is what we actually want to help you accountable with still today.

00:09:41: As long as its not bad Its may be more of what you say blind spots and learn something more about yourself.

00:09:50: Maybe we can learn something about how opinions emerge?

00:09:55: And not just that, like I think if i think of it from a collaboration standpoint...I have theory based on my own experience with this!

00:10:04: We had an internal mental narrative in our head.

00:10:07: We're always thinking

00:10:08: right?!

00:10:11: Our brains are not very good at distinguishing what happened inside or ahead.

00:10:15: And so when we think, we told somebody something it's because We thought were going to tell them Something.

00:10:21: It doesn't mean that we did.

00:10:22: Telled him something right.

00:10:24: and So like.

00:10:25: maybe this helps us become a little bit more aware That what is happening in our head isn't visible To other people?

00:10:34: What do you think we make Visible the Other People?

00:10:37: Isn't always The whole sum of what we Make visible to other people.

00:10:43: If I Think about From a team collaboration standpoint If we give people permission to change their mind.

00:10:51: Yes, that's the important precondition.

00:10:53: right if

00:10:54: We acknowledge that these records may not be a hundred percent accurate But it inspires These conversations of like it becomes safe for somebody To say didn't we talk about this last week?

00:11:06: Can we look at the record Mm-hmm and then what

00:11:09: were our opinions back then in What have we learned since?

00:11:13: And then where do we stand today?

00:11:15: Like if it's changed, let's talk about why and Let's make sure.

00:11:18: We have a shared experience About what change to the evolved our team perspective.

00:11:24: yes So I love that framing

00:11:26: yeah like we can Do at individual level but maybe It's also really cool collaboration tool.

00:11:31: Yeah may be there.

00:11:32: i liked that framing.

00:11:34: so under these circumstances i'm now convinced That people should use more in dead way

00:11:39: But I also think that can be weaponized.

00:11:42: Like you said this on this date, why are you changing your mind?

00:11:46: Yeah right yeah of course and it's maybe so if people are using it... Maybe use it on yourself first to see how it feels before you actually use it in others and your team

00:11:57: First.

00:11:57: experience!

00:11:58: How much your memory does not represent reality Which by the way is very disturbing.

00:12:06: It IS very disturbing.

00:12:08: I still cannot get out of my head.

00:12:10: the t-shirt that i am confident exists, but does not exist.

00:12:15: I can visualize it!

00:12:17: It's a different color than the actual T-Shirt.

00:12:19: The graphic is completely different.

00:12:22: But

00:12:23: its not to exist...

00:12:26: It doesn't exist in Rick's wardrobe..it just exists in your memory.

00:12:30: I love

00:12:31: it.

00:12:31: By

00:12:32: the way, did you know?

00:12:33: Just for my email course i wrote something about personality stages of personality development in humans.

00:12:40: right so that's a bit of psychological thing.

00:12:43: It is called The Living Us Stages and there actually one stage And I think its' One Of The Latest Stages.

00:12:49: So Its Has Eight Levels When You Are As Conscious About Your Own Floors personality stability.

00:13:04: And it comes with memory stability and the ability to accept that two people can have different things to be true at the same

00:13:15: time.".

00:13:16: Yeah, is this Chris Argers' work?

00:13:20: Maybe they teamed up on that.

00:13:21: so... It's called The Living Us Stages!

00:13:23: I know she wrote papers for Chris Arger as well.

00:13:27: There

00:13:27: are a lot of researchers who Okay, so I think where this is rooted in psychology we have child development stages that are very stable.

00:13:39: And there's a lot of psychologists trying to identify...are they adult development?

00:13:44: Exactly!

00:13:45: And i believe the root started with Chris Argers' action science.

00:13:50: Yeah and

00:13:52: then there're bunch researchers who've gone their own direction on what those development stage That's model you're using.

00:14:02: Let me look let me look it up.

00:14:04: And let me ask Claude

00:14:06: Yeah, okay What fun about this is?

00:14:09: I'm not.

00:14:10: i'll share?

00:14:10: I'm NOT a hundred percent convinced that the adult stages I'm Not convinced any of these models get it right

00:14:18: Because they are all theoretical models.

00:14:21: still We put it in the show notes, people.

00:14:31: If you want to read more about it on Wikipedia and I sent a link now to Theresa that she can look at up there in the chat.

00:14:38: Perfect!

00:14:40: Yeah but... It's so funny that we talk about because maybe more people will then land on something like the higher-up person ego development stages Because they really see their own thoughts And therefore it would be easier for them To collaborate with other humans.

00:14:57: That'd actually cool.

00:14:59: Okay, so I want to touch on this a little bit.

00:15:03: I'm not one hundred percent convinced these adult stages are real but what i love about the models around them is they start... They're like an extension of theory-of-mind.

00:15:15: So theory

00:15:16: mind when it kid realizes What's in their experience?

00:15:20: Is not exactly The same as somebody else's experience and they start to be able To project that person might.

00:15:28: Yes, exactly.

00:15:29: Yeah

00:15:30: that kid doesn't love the toy and That's just a different perspective.

00:15:33: kind of yes

00:15:34: I'm really butchering theory of mind But that said that's like a real basic way to start.

00:15:38: And i think what's common across all these adult models is it's Like looking at how does theory of Mind evolve?

00:15:45: Because I Think humans naturally have this like Individual centric view Of The world and then as we like interact with the World.

00:15:54: We're forced We're forced to like take other people's perspectives.

00:16:01: Yes, and there is variation in human ability To do that.

00:16:04: yes

00:16:05: exactly

00:16:06: I think the part i don't agree with necessarily Is this they present them as these like Graduating

00:16:12: stages.

00:16:13: yeah

00:16:14: And it a little bit of This.

00:16:16: later Stages are better than earlier Stages?

00:16:24: Yeah, but it's not what living as claiming for her.

00:16:27: It's more like nested.

00:16:28: so... ...it's not that later is better.

00:16:32: But if you cannot go to seven until you went through all the other ones because there is kind of a Their learnings and realizations in your ego development without them You don't come to the next stage.

00:16:44: basically

00:16:45: yeah I liked thinking about it more as like you're filling your toolbox And there's different tools that are helpful in different contexts.

00:16:54: So like, In some of these models I would argue the earlier stages tools can be more appropriate and some situations than a later stage tools?

00:17:06: I'm not sure if i go with it because for me has nothing to do with tool box.

00:17:11: It has more to do life experiences That force you into certain ability and flexibility neurologically to think about certain concepts.

00:17:24: Yeah, I would call that a tool though.

00:17:29: We should maybe do an episode on these models?

00:17:31: I love it!

00:17:32: A very philosophical conversation at the end folks.

00:17:35: yeah

00:17:35: for sure

00:17:36: all right.

00:17:37: anyway thanks for hanging out with us.

00:17:39: yeah i'm gonna wrap up with everybody but we are at a point where everyone is recording their conversations.

00:17:46: Maybe think about how that impacts your relationships both positively and maybe negatively.

00:17:51: I love you, Repa!

00:17:52: Thank You Teresa.

00:17:53: Thanks Petra.