Unpacking Innovation

00:00:03: Hi folks, this is all

00:00:05: things

00:00:06: product with Petra Ville

00:00:07: and Theresa Kortz.

00:00:09: And we're so happy you here!

00:00:17: Theresa We left the folks with a bit of cliffhanger, few episodes ago and we promised them that will be talking about innovation.

00:00:26: Today is today when I decided to discuss this topic.

00:00:31: What's your current read on innovation?

00:00:32: Is it the aftermath of great product discovery or ultimate goal in product development?

00:00:41: What are you thoughts?

00:00:43: Yeah!

00:00:43: I think what triggered us was our trash can tracking idea And we were talking about how to measure discovery and I think what came up was like, How innovative our solutions are.

00:00:57: That bothered me a little bit.

00:01:00: You know there's whole industry around corporate innovation.

00:01:04: Are we innovative enough?

00:01:06: When i hear innovation What usually has that word is meant?

00:01:10: Is it coming with novel ways To serve the customer?

00:01:16: Yes And I think the problem I have with that is, we don't always need novel ways to serve the customer.

00:01:25: When you get distracted by a novel, do they end up in complex ways?

00:01:31: That's

00:01:36: interesting because for me and maybe it is definition problems so often And maybe that's because of the design schools or Dieter Rams, Brown or then ultimately Apple.

00:01:58: Simplicity can be so much innovation as well and reducing complexity leaving things out minimizing steps all these kind of thing in history.

00:02:11: product development Software and hardware, I think.

00:02:16: That is where a lot of innovation came from.

00:02:19: so for me it's always like innovating on behalf of the user which has claimed that i have no clue who inherited this back in days but still love to innovate.

00:02:33: when talking with team really looking at, can we reduce something?

00:02:42: Can we make it easier and simpler for me as

00:02:45: well?".

00:02:45: And that is innovative in itself to some extent.

00:02:50: Yeah!

00:02:50: This where this word is tricky for me... I'm going use a very concrete example.

00:02:56: Let's just take logging-in.

00:02:58: We're seeing a lot of innovation around login right now.

00:03:02: Not necessarily

00:03:03: good ones

00:03:05: But some good ones, right?

00:03:06: Yes.

00:03:06: Some historically

00:03:08: I would have said this is not an area where you need to innovate like.

00:03:12: You don't need to reinvent the login process.

00:03:15: We're all familiar with how it works and This is probably not where you should spend your time.

00:03:21: The problem with that Is that like slack came along and introduced magic links And that was In That specific moment in Time a really nice innovation.

00:03:30: Yeah

00:03:30: What's

00:03:31: often what causes innovation?

00:03:34: pressure from a competitor side, or and I think that there is another reason why logins have been changing so much.

00:03:40: They were just not safe enough anymore.

00:03:43: So technology...

00:03:44: Okay but that's it!

00:03:46: That's a different issue.

00:03:46: like I want

00:03:48: to like log

00:03:48: ins i feel gives us a really nice timeline for innovation.

00:03:53: For a long time we had this very strong pattern of you go to a website There's username password You fill in your hit enter Yeah, then there was like friction and I actually think the friction was entered because companies had to support single sign-on And so they couldn't ask for a user session.

00:04:13: Yeah They had asked for a username first and then decide if that username required single sign on and Then direct you to right place.

00:04:21: So now what used to be a one step process is now a two step process?

00:04:25: And we're adding a little more friction.

00:04:27: and i think at The time that slack introduced the magic link it was like

00:04:31: look Whether

00:04:32: you're single sign on or not, You can enter your email and the second

00:04:36: we figured it out

00:04:37: Can just be click a link?

00:04:39: And will get you logged in.

00:04:40: yeah.

00:04:40: That felt like a magic link.

00:04:43: It was very innovative.

00:04:45: But then what happened is a lot of us Not all of us and certainly not most of us outside of tech but some Of Us started using tools Like one password.

00:04:53: hmm

00:04:54: And magic links are super annoying if you use one password because I don't do anything to log in anymore.

00:05:00: The login screen pops up, OnePassword populates.

00:05:03: it's the button for me and i'm logged-in.

00:05:05: but If there is a Magic link now have go my email then click on the link.

00:05:09: So like this...I think This Is A Really Good Example of Like For Most People.

00:05:15: We Have A Really Strong Pattern.

00:05:17: You Probably Don't Need To Innovate But there are still companies where innovating might be the right answer.

00:05:24: that then changes the industry and Then it changes again.

00:05:28: And that innovative solution isn't innovative anymore.

00:05:31: Yeah, like I'm sick companies were not even in charge of the innovation because one password for example changed The game entirely Right.

00:05:39: so he was not a company's providing to people with the login form who could have solved them for their problem.

00:05:47: Yeah, and I guess the problem.

00:05:48: I have with this is that like our job is not to Be innovative in the login process Our job is to make the log-in process as easy as possible for our customers And then trying to solve that problem.

00:06:02: it might require a novel solution But it might not.

00:06:07: and so like rather than focusing on the novelty of the solution I think the focus should be on The Best Solution.

00:06:15: And if The Best solution is a pedestrian pattern, we should be okay with

00:06:19: that.".

00:06:20: I agree and That's where login maybe as an example has its limitations because when i was still actively doing product management work... ...I loved Shoutout to Jeff Patton user story mapping that we always struggle to put things like login on a user story map because no user ever said, I would really love to log into their website.

00:06:46: What they wanted to do is they want it to bookmark stuff and therefore they needed a profile where we could store the bookmarks They wanna did persistent.

00:06:54: there weren't the book marks to be synced across devices yada-yada-yah And then tolerated in Login Because they knew to some extent We need to identify them To make all these functionality accessible right?

00:07:06: And that why is innovation on a login form, it's maybe even trickier as an example than anything else.

00:07:14: That the user would actually say like hey I would love to bookmark this job posting or something like that.

00:07:19: then you can think about.

00:07:20: are there good ways more innovative ideas to do so?

00:07:24: Then the competition may be but for a log in its trickier i guess because of that nature off The task

00:07:33: although For anything, you could replace login with almost anything.

00:07:38: And I think if the focus is on novelty... You're often going to end up too complex in a solution.

00:07:47: Whereas it's focused on serving the customer.. Yes!

00:07:51: ...you might end-up with an innovative solution or what works best may be novel but not be.

00:07:59: So my concern for innovation as the target.

00:08:02: Is it pushing us towards novel solutions when novel solutions may not be the best solution?

00:08:11: What my brain currently does, and I'm still forming my opinion but thinking along full risks of software development right now.

00:08:23: Because they can come handy in here as well because you can have something that is tech-feasibility wise novel or maybe innovative But for the user, it's not.

00:08:34: So in the end what they see is rather similar to what I have seen in the past but it does solve for tech legacy issues or It's a new kind of coding framework that makes things easier internally and stuff like That.

00:08:47: so i just wanted to throw dead-in-the-mix To say yeah And just because something Is novel on one Of our dimensions?

00:08:55: If Not necessarily has to be On The other ones.

00:08:58: sometimes there is innovation and novelty In Things that look rather boring on the outside for their use and for the organization as well.

00:09:05: Business case innovations oftentimes user couldn't care less?

00:09:09: Yeah, I think this is a good point.

00:09:11: like not all innovation has novel impact on the user.

00:09:17: yeah exactly.

00:09:18: And what's hard about this is i'm not saying don't Look For Novel solutions Right!

00:09:27: I'm Not Saying Don't Question Assumptions Or Look For What Could Be Better.

00:09:32: My concern with this area is, our goal isn't novelty.

00:09:37: Our goal is to find the best way to serve the customer and sometimes that requires a novel solution but not all times

00:09:48: Yeah!

00:09:49: And I think the framing or the push towards looking for novelty and innovation Is more helpful if you basically sharing that lens because the product development team has more this focus on smaller things and iterations, and maintenance enhanceability of the thing that they already have.

00:10:14: So actually pushing them sometimes to think outside of their box.

00:10:21: Is there anything that is new enough to our users, too?

00:10:26: To make it a thing to talk about.

00:10:27: To make the press release around into whatever it is?

00:10:31: I think they could be helpful inspiration and one helpful lens if they're planning The next quarter or something like That.

00:10:38: um And the product leaders know the teams that need that push And they will have other ones that maybe need to push in the other direction.

00:10:48: The redirection did you saying like, hey don't innovate for the sake of the innovation?

00:10:53: Yeah I You know as you explain that i think what i can agree with always is when you're considering solutions... ...you should always push the boundaries and look at Like.

00:11:04: you should consider innovative solutions Right.

00:11:08: so i agree with this idea of Think outside the box, push the boundaries.

00:11:12: Can you just make this problem go away by coming up with a novel solution?

00:11:17: I think it's not true that we should always choose The novel solution.

00:11:22: no yeah agree right because i

00:11:23: think novelty comes With the cost.

00:11:25: It comes with a burden on the user to learn A new flow and new system.

00:11:29: We're seeing This Right now with pass keys like the average person On earth does Not know what a past key is.

00:11:34: or how do You

00:11:35: know?

00:11:36: That's a lot of Friction

00:11:37: even

00:11:38: if in the long run it removes friction,

00:11:42: right?

00:11:43: Hopefully when implemented well.

00:11:46: And so I guess we see a lot of corporations talking about innovation and the goal is innovation.

00:11:54: We don't always talk about the cost of innovation.

00:11:56: that out mean R&D costs The mental cognitive cost to user.

00:12:02: Yeah yeah i totally agree.

00:12:06: And by the way, that is one reason why I have always loved to be in truly cross-functional environments.

00:12:13: because then so often innovation or really like novel ways of approaching things came from conversations with my engineers.

00:12:25: Because every

00:12:26: possible problem yeah,

00:12:27: that's exactly the just now a possible vibe.

00:12:31: That is actually what always happens if you have this truly cross-functional team.

00:12:34: so that's where lot of innovation comes from and good and that's to get type off innovation that we observe.

00:12:41: but the customer wants and needs and whether user struggles whole teams as it.

00:12:45: and then one engineer says like There's a new way of solving for that problem and it's very easy.

00:12:51: And then everybody is like so happy, things are just falling into place again.

00:12:57: my pitch for cross-functional collaboration.

00:13:01: I also think the highlights what my major concern here Is our goal to solve customer problems.

00:13:09: Our goal isn't innovation.

00:13:11: Innovation is only valuable if it solves the customer problem.

00:13:14: Yes

00:13:17: And so like, I think some companies lose sight of that.

00:13:20: They think the goal is innovation.

00:13:22: we have whole industries around helping companies be more innovative.

00:13:26: i'd rather We help companies Be better at solving customer problems.

00:13:30: Yeah, I would actually add solving them in Better ways to make The company successful.

00:13:36: So there could be still things That are innovative.

00:13:38: they've helped a company to be More successful?

00:13:44: But yeah, other than that I totally to subscribe.

00:13:46: To what you said

00:13:48: and i think this comes up because of like if i think about it from a market Like a marketplace standpoint If I have an innovative solution?

00:13:57: I'm clearly differentiated for my competitors Yes And that gives the customer reason to pick me over somebody else.

00:14:04: So again, I'm not poo-pooing novelty like.

00:14:07: there are lots of advantages to novelty When it serves the customer.

00:14:12: Yeah

00:14:14: I love it.

00:14:15: I think we just forget though when it serves the customer

00:14:18: too often, especially if their innovation department's Teresa.

00:14:23: Especially when there is an innovation department?

00:14:27: Love it!

00:14:27: We explored this one well enough i would say what do you agree?

00:14:31: okay thank you Teresa.

00:14:33: thanks Petra.