Stepping Into Leadership

00:00:03: Hi folks, this is All

00:00:05: Things

00:00:06: Product with Petra Ville

00:00:07: and Theresa Kortz.

00:00:09: And we're so happy

00:00:10: you're here!

00:00:16: Petra I wanted to ask you about a question that i feel like has been circling for decades... ...and nobody has the good answer.

00:00:27: It's this challenge of your individual contributor You really want to step into leadership role.

00:00:34: Nobody wants to hire leaders who don't have leadership experience.

00:00:38: What can somebody who's like a super icy, they're very motivated.

00:00:44: They feel like they've reached what they can in that role and really want

00:00:48: to move them into

00:00:49: the leadership role?

00:00:51: Yes!

00:00:51: A peak product manager or designer whatever their role is...what could they be doing for their first leadership role?

00:01:01: That's a great question.

00:01:03: I love how you frame it and nobody had the answer for ages, And now are you asking the answer in casual podcast to me?

00:01:09: So let see... Yeah!

00:01:09: The tricky ones.

00:01:10: All

00:01:11: of hard questions from people

00:01:19: who what would my advice be?

00:01:23: so various things.

00:01:26: i can walk You through all them.

00:01:27: first of all would see if I can get off hold of anything that talks about leadership responsibilities in your organization.

00:01:36: So, it gives you a bit of a compass.

00:01:38: for example what is the leadership role all about?

00:01:41: What are responsibilities of somebody in a leadership role?

00:01:45: Um...I have some in my managing up talk for example.

00:01:49: um we can make sure to link that here so that people can find some If they don't uh Have some in their HR drawers basically.

00:01:58: But these are things that the organization thinks a good leader has actually to do, show and prove responsibilities they take on in leadership role or position.

00:02:10: My product leadership wheel for example is structured around twelve responsibilities as well.

00:02:16: So there's one thing... Let me just pause you here

00:02:19: because I want to distinguish between some of those things.

00:02:27: Have an understanding of what is expected of leaders.

00:02:31: Yes, and you had You personally have a couple frameworks around this your leadership wheel?

00:02:35: He gave him managing up talk where he talked about What should we expect from leaders mm-hmm.

00:02:40: But I think there's something you said that I just want to underscore because i think the most important part Of what you said Is you have to understand what your organization?

00:02:50: Will expect some leaders cuz it differs from organization to organization.

00:02:55: yes And then this is like It's.

00:03:00: it would be great if like your HR department had said these are the leadership attributes We expect of our leaders, but that doesn't always exist.

00:03:07: So I think we can start from a more general leadership framework.

00:03:13: But

00:03:13: what

00:03:14: people do to learn about their companies care?

00:03:21: So the easiest starting point, if you're in a bigger organization is to us.

00:03:24: If there's leadership training curriculum or something like that because that usually tells you a lot about what trainings they send newbie leaders too.

00:03:35: Is it more the time management, project management?

00:03:39: All these kind of management things?

00:03:42: or is it finding your voice leadership personality.

00:03:48: Or a leadership thing that you can't understand?

00:03:54: if onboarding curriculum or leadership training curriculum, and usually you can find that somewhere in your company's wiki.

00:04:04: So HR is usually not hiding them from the rest of the organization.

00:04:08: sometimes they even advertise with it so that's an easy one to find.

00:04:14: And then if you don't find it in the wiki, go ask people that have stepped into a leadership position within the last three-ish years because they can usually tell you like oh there is actually quite good framework.

00:04:26: we inherit and use big consultancy organization.

00:04:32: Gallup for example, Conferi.

00:04:35: so companies sometimes help organizations to define their leadership roles or skills And that is sometimes where the junior leaders in your organizations could still point you to because they're most likely still know like, yeah.

00:04:55: We were at this one particular training day and there was this trainer from just one particular company?

00:05:01: I don't know.

00:05:02: And then it's called something like For Your Improvement by Corn Ferry and talking about one million skills in how to assist them, sometimes

00:05:10: that's captured in corporate values too right?

00:05:13: Yeah!

00:05:14: That could be the case as well.

00:05:16: or leadership principles.

00:05:18: These are the attributes we care about.

00:05:21: Amazon has a publicy available page with their leadership principles for example.

00:05:29: One of them is, and it's widely known as disagree-and-commit.

00:05:33: I think in the origins from there so that its principles like that... In a leadership position you need to be able still lead the change even if you don't commit or not necessarily agree with the change that has to happen.

00:05:48: So for example one of these examples Yeah exactly!

00:05:52: That stuff which we want look at.

00:05:55: And with that, you can build a bit of your compass on what leadership means in your environment ecosystem company context.

00:06:04: Yeah and again there's never harm finding mentor more senior leader.

00:06:10: they might be good source for these kind conversations as well.

00:06:14: yeah okay.

00:06:16: so step one is sort learn about what is expected.

00:06:20: leaders both generally also specific to organization.

00:06:24: Yeah, and I would in the beginning not stressing out too much about this definition because it can seem like a big stretch goal if you're still an individual contributor role.

00:06:35: So put it up somewhere.

00:06:38: You can stick it on your notebook.

00:06:40: Um, you could put it into your claw code MD files wherever you want to put it and keep it obsidian fault But don't stress Too much about it.

00:06:52: What is more important?

00:06:53: Is that you start to practice some of this call leadership skills That need to really go into your muscle memories and really become this kind.

00:07:02: Okay, I'm really good at doing this.

00:07:03: I can't do that and for me one important one easy to practice in an IC level role is just saying no two things In a very appropriate way where people understand Where you're coming from even if they not necessarily agree.

00:07:17: again It's a bit of yeah i agree with your sentiment?

00:07:21: I don't like Your sentiment maybe but You have explained it well.

00:07:25: so why are we Saying No To A specific feature?

00:07:28: Can you explain it well?

00:07:30: Why are we saying no to a more strategic initiative, why do we say no to sunsetting this product.

00:07:36: So all of these cases that usually have in the product management role.

00:07:41: so get really good and not only saying like nope!

00:07:44: And being the firewall but also explaining the why coming with evidence That's another thing.

00:07:51: So allow people to always double click on your nose, so if somebody says like I don't get it then you're like Don't worry!

00:07:59: i have a lot of data or he has bit of evidence.

00:08:02: but this is why we saying no?

00:08:04: that one thing bring the data and than If You can practice provide this directional clarity Always practice say hey This where currently headed And if still in product management or design role then that might only be the direction of clarity for the next four weeks, right?

00:08:23: Because this is maybe a horizon you're currently comfortable managing.

00:08:28: And then... You may want to go to a quarter at some point, comfortably saying like no two things in a quarter and why, providing direction or clarity on the quarter beyond what we are working with now basically your leadership horizon, you strategic horizon to some extent and really by practicing this art of saying no in good ways.

00:08:54: To stakeholders, to users too.

00:08:56: whoever is coming to your desk as executives board members who ever shows up practice saying no to them in constructive ways I'd say

00:09:07: yeah.

00:09:07: so

00:09:08: this like...this is such a Product management trope almost that like the product manager's job is to say no To everything except for like a very small number of things That are gonna have an impact and I think it can be really misunderstood.

00:09:22: Like, I Think product managers tend to get themselves into trouble when it looks like they're saying No

00:09:29: Because

00:09:30: because they don't like your idea.

00:09:32: Yeah It's like you're just making things based on your preferences.

00:09:37: And so it sounds like what you're saying is Saying no is the easy part.

00:09:42: The hard part is how do we communicate almost a sense of procedural justice?

00:09:49: Like what are the rules were using to decide, What We Say Yes To and What Do We Say No To?

00:09:54: yeah And one thing I have found Is that you You Almost Don't want to say no.

00:10:02: you Want to say here's what we're doing and show that there's no room left for the thing being suggested.

00:10:09: So it is a little bit of like, I think this as part of your directional clarity.

00:10:16: if you can clearly communicate what we're saying

00:10:20: yes to

00:10:21: This our customer, this is our strategy here how are going get their?

00:10:26: then when somebody comes in with the distractor You can say, remember this is our goal.

00:10:31: This is how we're going to get there and you are almost like helping the other person know their own idea.

00:10:37: That's your ideal scenario!

00:10:38: We still want them to come share with us so that they don't want to send away for ever.

00:10:47: but if they could answer questions themselves then it would be beneficial exactly.

00:10:52: Then directional clarity is given right?

00:10:55: understand the moment.

00:10:57: they have to idea how you would assess it and what he will be saying about it.

00:11:03: Then then your life like direction clarity given I'd say yeah, that's something as you can practice.

00:11:09: Yeah this directional clarity piece seems like the crux.

00:11:11: look if i can in this also seem like a really big leadership skill of him.

00:11:17: How do you clearly see we're going in this direction here?

00:11:20: is why?

00:11:21: Then I feel like if that's in place, all this other stuff gets a little bit easier.

00:11:25: Maybe not easy but it'll be easier.

00:11:28: Easier.

00:11:29: What are you talked about?

00:11:31: Like your individual contributor might be responsible for setting directional clarity for couple weeks.

00:11:37: If i'm defining a sprint... I am defining directional clarity of the sprint.

00:11:41: So one way to grow is can provide directional clarity with two sprints or three sprints

00:11:48: and four

00:11:49: sprints.

00:11:50: How do I balance this with the fact that... ...I might learn something in the next two weeks, which changes my directional clarity?

00:11:57: Yeah.

00:11:58: That's usually not a problem because at the moment you get better looking further out.

00:12:08: You get better in being more meta and less concrete about the things that you're working on.

00:12:15: So, you go from a backlog item to maybe an apex level or opportunities level of however you would call it at level And then talk about hey!

00:12:23: That's the outcomes we are trying to drive More than actually features going into build.

00:12:29: So with looking further out, you moving up on the mental model that I'm using for debt here.

00:12:35: By the way shout-out Martin Ericsson it's a decision stack.

00:12:39: so i'm going to go back and look at my timeline.

00:12:46: And this is how you still can react to changes, because then you might be learning something and You might want to ditch the two features that you were planning To do.

00:12:55: but it has no impact on The outcome set.

00:13:00: So when you move Further out on a timeline on the artifacts that you basically look at for your directional clarity.

00:13:11: Yeah, and it gets a bit more meta.

00:13:13: It's another thing that you could practice being more comfortable with things not being very concrete And super clear what to build Not so feature-based...it is like when we talk about this problem discovery solution discovery implementation discovery So its different levels of similar work.

00:13:34: I'd say

00:13:36: Yeah, I recently wrote a blog post about this where i took um janna bastow's now next later roadmap format And combined it with an opportunity solution tree.

00:13:46: so in the now column You have solutions.

00:13:49: In the next column you might have opportunities?

00:13:51: You don't know what solutions are gonna build yet.

00:13:54: and then your later Column you might just know that outcome you're going after.

00:13:56: yeah really has even an idea of Opportunities.

00:14:04: It's just to like clarify what you're saying.

00:14:07: You're not suggesting To grow your leadership ability, you need to have a twelve-week road map A three month roadmap, six months roadmap, a twelve month roadmap of features Because that's not like feasible.

00:14:21: That's really mean by think further down the road is that The farther down the roads you get ,the less concrete that directional clarity.

00:14:32: Yeah,

00:14:32: in the talk.

00:14:33: Yeah, and the talk that I'm giving...I use an old video from The Seventies.

00:14:38: From Ray & Jarl's Eames where they zoom out from a picnic blanket in New York Central Park.

00:14:45: Anyways park somewhere!

00:14:47: And they zoomed out form this picnic blanket.

00:14:51: This is exactly the metaphor for what people want to use because at first you still see what food the people on their picnic blankets are having.

00:15:00: then you just like see two people who have a picnic.

00:15:03: You can't see what they actually having for a picnic.

00:15:06: And then it's zooming out and you see like there are people in the park, and you don't specifically see the people having the picnic there?

00:15:13: Um, and I think this is exactly the exercise.

00:15:16: so you need to be able um To let go of some of the details while still talking about enough context So that everybody can relate to the things that you actually want to say.

00:15:27: That's What i say with directional clarity Is provided different ways on different abstraction levels and that's another thing.

00:15:35: That one could start practicing while still in an IC level role.

00:15:41: Yeah, I actually think it's even helpful to practice this Even with your near-term work.

00:15:46: So even if you know exactly what features you're building You still want to communicate?

00:15:51: This is the problem we are solving The outcome or trying to impact because when It does as a gives you a lot of flexibility like let's use your picnic example barbecue chicken and potato salad.

00:16:02: And you go to the store, there's no chicken available.

00:16:04: You need to switch gears.

00:16:06: it doesn't mean you got a cancel the picnic right?

00:16:09: And I think this is where Being able that communicate at all these different levels even in the near term Helps with creating stability in your directional clarity Even when everything around you is changing.

00:16:25: Yeah indeed yeah any helps you to stay oriented when things are changing.

00:16:32: And that's, it's such a crucial leadership trait because you will be basically the rock in the chaos and people will kind of realize okay Petra always is very good at quickly sorting out things.

00:16:46: she seems to have a model for it.

00:16:49: how?

00:16:49: I don't know How She Does It But Always Things Make Sense After her looking at it for a minute.

00:16:58: And that's what you want to practice, yeah?

00:17:03: This might be a hard question but I think...I wanna like touch on before we wrap up.

00:17:08: how do we find the right directional clarity?

00:17:14: That so much depends on how much agency are able take within the organization your currently working.

00:17:24: And again, I think leading by example never does any harm.

00:17:28: So if you can provide all this context for your work then always do.

00:17:34: but in some organizations it's easier their product people and their teams For example own the entire product strategy including the profit and loss and All these kind of things right?

00:17:44: For them, it's way easier to zoom out and its way easier provide the direction of clarity because they see all data that need to be seen.

00:17:54: They can talk with customers let us assume is given in their organization as well.

00:17:59: so even create a lot evidence for things planning or whatever When other organizations, so many of these things are super tricky.

00:18:10: not given.

00:18:11: Not allowed.

00:18:11: and we have episodes people how you could still get the most out-of-your-customer conversations even if your company doesn't want it to.

00:18:20: but that's... It is a reality.

00:18:22: for some product people they basically what their own is still this backlog And maybe road map.

00:18:29: And then it is harder for you to provide that directional clarity, because often times your company don't have this level of sharing data with you.

00:18:37: For you make sense off things properly and its hard for you come up.

00:18:42: even napkin sketch a product strategy just like lacking all the economics before It really depends.

00:18:52: Don't get frustrated too easily, but you could always... Really I think it does make sense to start with the people that try provide directional clarity.

00:19:02: so how would their work day improve?

00:19:06: How can a stand-up be improved by providing more directional clarity?

00:19:13: So we think like five percent improvement maybe not one hundred percent improvement And that's why the question is a tricky one, and it looks so different in every organization.

00:19:26: In an ideal scenario I think product team or person responsible for product strategy including profit loss being able to talk with customers really good competition at market all these kinds of things setting for being able to provide people with direction and clarity.

00:19:48: Then it's just a matter of storytelling skills if you're succeeding in convincing others that the bright future, UC is the bright feature they should actually be working

00:19:57: towards.".

00:19:59: I think even on this scope where maybe their team has been told exactly what to build... They've never seen a P&L —they may not know who a P & L is— they don't really understand like….

00:20:14: They're basically are working on a value add product and they don't really understand even the nature of the value ad product.

00:20:19: There's no revenue model behind it.

00:20:21: It's just all.

00:20:22: the business context is murky.

00:20:24: I think.

00:20:26: Most at that time The product manager Has more busy, more exposure to the rest of the business than their rest of development team.

00:20:34: indeed.

00:20:35: So like

00:20:35: eat?

00:20:36: Even if your scope is really narrow you probably know more that you can rely on to set that directional clarity for the rest of the team.

00:20:45: And then I think, You could build your skill by showing up with some curiosity and asking questions and learning more about business context growing your own lens, widening your view so we bring it back into our team.

00:20:59: Yeah!

00:20:59: I like framing a lot.

00:21:01: Amazing!

00:21:04: We wrap this up right?

00:21:06: This is giving people some nice

00:21:09: actionable things to practice.

00:21:11: Just start with, can you think about how do just give a little more directional clarity than you are now?

00:21:18: And then how do you practice that and How do you keep doing it

00:21:21: good?

00:21:21: I like dad thanks.