Is Technology Good?

00:00:03: Hi folks, this is all

00:00:05: things

00:00:06: product with Petra Ville

00:00:07: and Theresa Kortz.

00:00:09: And we're so happy

00:00:10: you here!

00:00:16: Petra I'm gonna ask you a tough question.

00:00:20: Mm-hmm?

00:00:22: I've been wrestling with this for awhile... ...and i have the feeling that you do too.. ..and think it's really swirling right now with AI.

00:00:29: Which Is Do You Think Technology...?

00:00:32: And I want to get more specific....Do You Think Like The Internet Generative AI modern day, like the industry that we work on?

00:00:41: working is net positive.

00:00:45: Oh my god!

00:00:47: I'm glad you brought an easy question...I don't know if people know but recording this in my evening hours so i am not sure whether it's still functioning well to answer such a broad meta-question.

00:01:00: and yeah..i think about data aswell from various angles.

00:01:08: I started to talk about it publicly, was two or three years ago at our product At Heart opening and closing remarks where i actually said like that.

00:01:19: I have...I think..i hate it but i think i have to admit That i Was

00:01:23: part

00:01:24: of what has created some Of the evil we currently see in The world.

00:01:31: You know, Google had it in there.

00:01:33: What was the don't be evil?

00:01:35: I think that was actually what they had on a poster everywhere and their office right.

00:01:39: so That's where we all came from.

00:01:40: We all came From democratizing technology And opening things up to more voices and bringing in more diverse Yeah perspectives To the entire conversation.

00:01:57: So There Was The Internet And then there was user-generated content, and people had blogs.

00:02:04: People could comment on things... ...and actually help design the internet.

00:02:09: more and more people were starting coding.

00:02:11: That's what we all are coming from!

00:02:13: We helped building.

00:02:15: that is where we liked social media.

00:02:18: All of us thought it would be a good idea to work for Germany's biggest business social network For quite some time.

00:02:25: So I thought about all these early mechanisms of social media and about the effects that it was having.

00:02:34: And we were having.

00:02:35: this idea, which could have a profound positive impact on society.

00:02:42: now turns out there wasn't true at least not entirely true has a lot to do with the combination of how we currently have designed capitalism, or the stories that we tell ourselves about success and wild accumulation of wealth in some pockets.

00:03:08: And all of that has supercharged developments.

00:03:12: I don't like wanting to go into the woods and really considering how much I should expose my kid, for example.

00:03:23: To technology...I would rather prefer not too right now which is not possible?

00:03:28: So i'm still looking for a solution there.

00:03:31: so she's eight years old but i'm pretty much shielding her from all of this technology!

00:03:38: She's occasionally using an iPad or showing me what i do at my computer few occasions.

00:03:48: What about you?

00:03:50: This is interesting, so I like that you brought this up in the context of your daughter because... ...I was recently in San Diego visiting my aunt who i hadn't seen in years and she made a comment about She wished the internet had never happened.

00:04:09: And this floored me!

00:04:11: Because technology has been overwhelmingly positive Or so I thought like on an individual personal level, it's been overwhelmingly positive.

00:04:21: I mean i'm getting to the point where Like I don't really like LinkedIn?

00:04:24: I definitely have had my fair share of trolls like.

00:04:26: It's not all a hundred percent positive But like it never-I Never would've had the thought Of what if The internet didn't exist.

00:04:36: First of All I Would need A job.

00:04:39: That is What I was about To say.

00:04:40: we both Have benefited from the Internet

00:04:45: A lot.

00:04:46: But

00:04:46: I think this is

00:04:47: becoming really visible right now because of AI, like a lot people are not a fan and i think the backlash is totally valid.

00:04:55: And here's the thing!

00:04:56: Like...I've embraced this technology Yeah use it all day every day..and still have reservations and I still worry.

00:05:03: Are we

00:05:04: um

00:05:06: Making them world worse?

00:05:07: Then there was another that happened That started to make me wonder how in San Francisco wasn't too long ago.

00:05:17: Here's what I'll share, i live in a small town.

00:05:19: People still talk to each other.

00:05:20: people are extremely friendly to each Other.

00:05:23: Everybody engages with everybody.

00:05:25: you don't walk by someone on the street and not talk To them like it's just.

00:05:28: that's not the culture here.

00:05:30: And I was at San Francisco and I was really oh.

00:05:33: and also say like in COVID Restaurants move to like QR code menus because they were trying to do contact lists and keep everyone safe.

00:05:41: But as soon as covid ended Like, I can't think of a single restaurant in my entire town that still uses the system.

00:05:48: And then I was at San Francisco and saw like ninety percent of coffee shop patrons order on their phone to pick up their coffee without talking into human.

00:05:57: Almost every restaurant we went to had no staff.

00:05:59: they just used QR codes.

00:06:01: People ride in way modes.

00:06:03: They don't even have talk with a driver.

00:06:04: It feels as if were using technology to isolate ourselves from each other.

00:06:09: And I think because i'm really fortunate in that, I still live In a community That values community and like interacting with each other.

00:06:18: It was jarring.

00:06:20: Yeah?

00:06:20: And I don't...I don't

00:06:22: Like this world we're creating.

00:06:24: yeah but it has really convinced that for example why continue to run product at heart with our name?

00:06:33: is because it gives us a platform to share alternative narratives.

00:06:38: Because I think the future he's not yet created.

00:06:43: And you and I were talking about thinking scenarios in one of our former episodes, right?

00:06:47: And i think we should do the exact same things.

00:06:53: How even if we would, for example make every house fit for a climate to be able to heat up like three degrees.

00:07:18: We're currently not at one point five that everybody was hoping for more than what heading towards three.

00:07:24: so how will people be able survive in central London when you have like minus ten degree Celsius two plus forty degrees Celsius?

00:07:34: So really cold, to really hot.

00:07:36: How do we make sure housing is fit for that?

00:07:40: It's retrofit kind of scenario.

00:07:42: and then what they shared was you cannot afford doing it!

00:07:48: You can't afford every house to be equally heated.

00:07:53: so maybe there might have been shared communal spaces where people could go in and hang out or something like this.

00:08:01: They had conversations about positive narratives around AI as well and we're touching upon what things clearly I is not good at for example providing care to people.

00:08:14: And yeah, in your San Francisco use case People still might say like Yeah but the robot can provide care To human being.

00:08:22: But you know it's not The same thing.

00:08:24: skin-to-skin Human physical touch an empathy and these conversations that a different game.

00:08:31: so I think we all can look for the more positive narratives around the future.

00:08:37: AI technology still be a part of it, I don't necessarily doomsday at this time and having these conversations really does make difference because so often seems to be predominant operating model present right now.

00:08:58: But sometimes there needs to be a small seed an idea coming along and then enough people liking it.

00:09:05: And that becomes the major narrative, right?

00:09:07: So you never know what the conversations that you have will actually influence in the future.

00:09:15: so I would still encourage people say like no they can't do different narratives with AI.

00:09:23: Better days with that and worse days as well.

00:09:26: So sometimes I just want to go into the woods myself.

00:09:31: Yeah, I mean both the internet and AI.

00:09:34: they're tools And we can use the tools however you want.

00:09:37: i think What?

00:09:38: I'm wrestling With is it's harder for me To look back at The last last twenty years and to confidently say As an industry We've made the world better.

00:09:48: I Can see a lot of ways we've Made the World Worse.

00:09:52: Yeah,

00:09:52: I don't think it's all negative.

00:09:53: Don't you know?

00:09:54: I don' t think its all negative but i see a lot of negative and I Know people are starting to talk about this more And I Think we can All choose To work with organizations and Work on projects that create More good in the world.

00:10:08: So I don''t think It's all doom like dooms Like doom and gloom.

00:10:14: But I-it has me really thinking About How do we bet it be better responsible citizens in the tech industry?

00:10:23: how did We?

00:10:25: I think all The layoffs have spent a part of this for me.

00:10:28: Of like I Think you named It with just the greed Like, were going through and i know enough about history to Know that these greed cycles are their cycles.

00:10:37: They're very cyclical like we will eventually course correct but especially here In the US where living though one of the most extreme periods of greed that I think we've gone through since, you know like railroad tycoon era.

00:10:51: And i don't...I think were losing..i think we're forgetting who are as humans.

00:10:56: We're forgetting what matters to humans and if we all gonna get sucked in yet another new technology maybe should be a little more thoughtful about how do it this time.

00:11:11: yeah if we contribute, how much we contribute with whom we're working.

00:11:16: With who we partner in which we provide platform to.

00:11:21: so it's similar things that have been important in the past.

00:11:26: but I think not enough people That can afford To Think About These Things Do Actually Think About The Things.

00:11:34: So I still see people joining companies where i would say like, whoo.

00:11:37: I wouldn't actually think twice about joining that company and maybe they have their reasons but oftentimes They haven't even thought it through.

00:11:46: And this is actually something

00:11:49: yeah?

00:11:49: Yeah, I do want to acknowledge though That I think Like we are also in a tough economic climate Of course People don't always feel like they have a choice.

00:11:59: Some people are more of a position To be picky than others.

00:12:03: I can even see an argument for instead of turning down that job.

00:12:09: Yeah, yeah me too

00:12:10: from within right?

00:12:13: If you

00:12:13: do!

00:12:15: Yeah i feel like these are big meaty hard questions and I'm definitely not going to suggest there's a right answer... My plea would be talk to people who aren't in tech.

00:12:35: I cannot believe like it still blows my mind to think people.

00:12:39: Think the internet is net negative Like, i don't know how can-I guess I can objectively see where especially its impact on kids for sure and that was The context of the conversation.

00:12:51: But like It feels overwhelmingly net positive To me.

00:12:54: And that tells Me That Im living in an echo chamber And I need to get out Of that echo chamber and talk to more People.

00:13:01: Um so I think like thats a good starting point Is like

00:13:05: How do we just that

00:13:06: are in this industry.

00:13:08: Yeah, and plus look at.

00:13:10: so I think different cultural backgrounds matter how different countries are handling it what?

00:13:18: So for example we just had a very personal story.

00:13:21: now um We just heard i don't know How does is called an English?

00:13:24: by the way In Germany we call it Elternabend That's when all parents go to school And meet from one class To discuss certain topics.

00:13:32: Is

00:13:35: it like a parent meets with the teacher or is all of us get together?

00:13:38: No,

00:13:38: its parents meet.

00:13:40: But but all the parents from one class meet their teacher.

00:13:44: Oh we don't do that here.

00:13:45: We do like one-on-one Like A Parent Meets With The

00:13:47: Teacher.

00:13:48: That's why there is no.

00:13:50: I had to democracy One-O-One.

00:13:51: so in Germany we Do that Occasionally four times a year i would say and thats what they share.

00:14:03: That's why I say, right?

00:14:05: Look at other countries.

00:14:06: How are they doing

00:14:06: it?".

00:14:07: And there was not even my point!

00:14:09: So Elton Abend now we learned a new word that what you do.

00:14:13: and then he had the discussion about when kids get their first mobile phones instead of like dad and i think five years ago half off-the-class by nowadays... By the way all these kids are eight seven to eight year old so Half Of The Class would have Had Their First Mobile Phone Fiveish Years Ago.

00:14:31: Now all the parents

00:14:32: are currently three.

00:14:34: No, no not five.

00:14:35: but if you would

00:14:36: have yes

00:14:37: exactly Five years ago seven and eight year old would half of the class would have had some.

00:14:42: And now all the parent were agreeing that like oh hopefully we can actually Not hand them mobile phones personal mobile phones until the age of eleven or twelve.

00:14:54: And there was basic agreement.

00:14:56: So everybody was like, oh, glad we all agree on

00:14:58: that.".

00:14:59: All parents were like, okay... We not even consider giving them mobile phones until their time.

00:15:05: and then it's a wild change in perception over five years' time!

00:15:11: Five years ago the phone was something helpful at least how parents perceived it.

00:15:16: maybe still had its dangers but now every parent is no freaking way to make kids get the phone.

00:15:23: That's wild.

00:15:26: Yeah, yeah that is wild.

00:15:28: I yeah, I worry a lot about like human loneliness.

00:15:34: This has been a narrative in the US for a long time.

00:15:36: Like there was a book called i think it was called bullying alone.

00:15:41: It Was right after The one of our big shootings and column in Columbine Which

00:15:46: I remember?

00:15:47: I'm

00:15:47: like so cynical About this I can't even keep them straight anymore.

00:15:50: its pathetic.

00:15:51: But that, like the premise was at the root of all this is a loneliness epidemic.

00:15:57: And I feel like it's weird to me in some ways.

00:16:04: we live halfway across the world from each other and talk all the time with good friendship because technology!

00:16:11: That's awesome!

00:16:12: Yeah

00:16:16: but at same time... It's so much better to be in person and to socialize.

00:16:21: In-person, yes And I think One can't come at the cost of other like they have To Be additive.

00:16:29: and i Think Like The Tech Industry Is Really Promoted one At The Cost Of The Other?

00:16:34: And I'm Like it Makes Me Think Like How Do We Use Technology To Foster A Real Connection Not This Social Media Crap.

00:16:42: Um Yeah, I like Meetup Exists But Its not.

00:16:48: It's not what I mean.

00:16:49: I think there has got to be a way.

00:16:50: do this at like, more just very human connection level?

00:16:55: Yeah but the challenge as always is incentive system and value systems underneath.

00:17:02: so far most tech companies operated on premise of we want make people lives better.

00:17:12: currently you were pointing to greed already right.

00:17:16: The paradigm seems to shift too.

00:17:18: We want to extract as much value, and money from whatever we do for whoever we do it.

00:17:27: so no matter if the human beings suffer... ...we don't care about their human being in the loop because AI will make them obsolete anyways.

00:17:37: And I'm not sure this would be a clever narrative long run.

00:17:42: But currently, this is a tech-brown narrative that some people are using.

00:17:48: And I already saw these on panels.

00:17:51: It wasn't a panel the other day where basically it's something ahead of product said... Thankfully, Ronny Varghesey was with me on this panel and he was sharp in that moment.

00:18:16: And not only sitting there with his mouth wide open and it was really saying something... ...and they were meaningful and helpful to frame the entire thing.

00:18:24: Shout out to Ronny here!

00:18:26: But still.. There was a panel I was on….

00:18:29: ..and that's something that i heard.

00:18:30: That product leader felt comfortable about saying something like that infront of big audience So

00:18:40: I don't even know what to say to that like, just...I get it.

00:18:46: Like if you look around the world right now having a bajillion dollars gives me power and we've let That go unchecked for so long.

00:18:52: So i can see why people aspire to that because they want to win in life.

00:18:57: God!

00:18:57: I hope that's not what most of us want You Know?

00:19:01: Like I hope then Most Of Us still like at our core Want To Know Our Neighbors And Wanna Contribute to Our Communities.

00:19:09: Actually Part of the reason why I'm so excited about AI is that i feel like The way software has historically gotten built Is some startup raises a bajillion dollars from vc Which puts them on a trajectory where they have to get giant.

00:19:23: They have to be this giant horizontal play.

00:19:25: We already know in product, but when you get giant and your horizontal play it only kind Of works for most people.

00:19:31: But it works just enough that you take the market and win.

00:19:35: And we end up with shitty software, We ended up with greedy companies

00:19:38: what

00:19:38: I'm really hopeful of.

00:19:40: i'm Really enamored With this idea Of mom-and-pop tech like why can't my neighbor build Software That helps our neighborhood know each other?

00:19:50: Like maybe we don't need software for that?

00:19:53: Maybe like It's literally as simple As like.

00:19:56: we're gonna have a community calendar.

00:19:58: Then we get to build ourselves So it meets exactly what we need.

00:20:02: And people sign up for when we're going to do our neighborhood social happy hours.

00:20:06: in the podcast

00:20:07: example,

00:20:08: no?

00:20:08: It's an amazing.

00:20:09: but like.

00:20:10: I love this idea of like.

00:20:13: We can now build bespoke software For whatever is we need and were not dependent on these big players To like half-assed meet our needs.

00:20:25: My hope, this is why I frame it as mom-and-pop tech.

00:20:28: Just like when i go downtown in my town It's not big box retailers and restaurants.

00:20:35: we actually they're all local.

00:20:38: That something that my community values And I love that.

00:20:41: I think technology can have the equivalent right?

00:20:44: We could empower people to create The technology that their Community needs.

00:20:48: yeah Not have to worry about does it work for any other community?

00:20:52: And the podcast, they were actually framing it like inch wide.

00:20:56: but mild deep change.

00:20:58: They said like, so it's a really small slice that you're looking at?

00:21:03: But do we want to think that problem through and really solve it?

00:21:08: they had a bit of story around share economy And how for example You could map in community or neighborhood who is basically owning what and renting out the other neighbors.

00:21:19: So not everybody has certain drill sometimes used one special occasion And that is one of the use cases they talked about and could be supported by mom-and-dad hack, right?

00:21:31: So it's exactly what we were talking as well.

00:21:35: Even rideshare companies come into a town in the beginning at worst for everybody.

00:21:43: but driver makes good living people get rides The rideshare company only takes small amount because their trying to build market.

00:21:51: And then inevitably what happens, the ride share company takes more and more.

00:21:54: The consumer pays more of the driver makes less.

00:21:57: it's not a sustainable model.

00:21:58: but the thing is rideshare is inherently local.

00:22:02: any town can have a matching system between riders and drivers.

00:22:08: yeah in that town doesn't need to make a bajillion dollars from right?

00:22:12: It could be really

00:22:14: specific code.

00:22:14: they way do it.

00:22:18: Yeah, they will.

00:22:19: So yeah that's actually a narrative I like and this would be an application of technology is more familiar to what i was hoping for.

00:22:30: technology.

00:22:31: so if we all can go back What role would that put on us is more the educator role?

00:22:40: Because then we need to spread the news to mom and dad, our neighbors out there.

00:22:44: That this is possible!

00:22:45: And they could start playing around with it... It's a more of an educator role I think.

00:22:51: And again spreading positive narratives and inspiring their change.

00:22:58: And then having these meta conversations.

00:23:00: So that's why I really enjoyed listening to this podcast episode today because it was super meta and not for everybody, but you need break down into your community or local neighborhood as long we find positive narratives I don't

00:23:30: know, we kind of wandered all over in this episode.

00:23:33: I guess i'm going to go back To what?

00:23:36: I asked at the very beginning which is technology good and if We're gonna work in this industry How can we be a bigger part of making sure it is net positive?

00:23:46: I think that's a good place.

00:23:48: I think just leave listeners with us Just whatever that means for you.

00:23:52: how do we contribute to the positive side Of this And mitigate some other downside.

00:23:57: I love the framing.

00:23:59: thanks Teresa.

00:24:00: Thanks, Petra.